tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post3025895085642649465..comments2011-01-25T13:46:03.063-08:00Carriehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08772667430500306088noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-33530281189606817282008-07-30T06:59:00.000-07:002008-07-30T06:59:00.000-07:00After reading BLJ by Don Miller I'm reminded of Romans 7:15 "For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate." Miller clearly identifies with the Apostle Paul's struggle to live without sin in a sinful world. But I don't put much stock in Miller's liberal critique of the American church as the answer. I agree with Carrie that BLJ should not be interpreted as a doctrinal guide. BLJ is simply one person's journal of their spiritual struggles and conversations about God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-40235466671018666402008-06-20T05:05:00.000-07:002008-06-20T05:05:00.000-07:00To be honest with you, I think you are missing the point(s) Mr. Miller was making entirely. Being followers of Christ we are called to relationship with God, and with people. People are relational, and that is a fact. Reaching people for the Kingdom by simply telling them scripture, or directing them to the Bible, while in some cases effective is hardly carrying out the great commission by anyone's standards. We are called to Love others as we love ourselves. Speaking truth is fine, but we are to speak truth in love. Tolerating someone, accepting someone as a fellow human being is not love. Love is treating them as if they were more important than you. Their needs, desires, concerns, fears, hopes, should all be important to you on a relational level. Now don't get me wrong I doubt many of us have the capacity to relate to everyone like this, but in any event it is what we are commanded to do. I feel like you are so personally offended by people who claim to be different, I sense you have your own little Christian comfort zone, and you most likely prefer the beautiful people over the prostitutes, the criminals, the homosexuals and so on. I guess that's fine, after all who am I to judge? People are people. There are those who are lost and those who are saved. People respond to emotions, to relationship. Hand a Bible or a pamphlet with scripture to a non believer scorned by bad experiences with the " church " and see how effective plain truth is. Sure Truth is Truth, but Jesus told us to spread the Gospel (the good news) and to do the things He did. He didn't walk the earth just dropping random truth on folks, He spoke into there hearts, their issues, there sin, and He did it in a way that was loving, and relational. He gave people back their dignity, a sense of value and purpose just by sharing a meal with them or going to their home etc... In that culture those acts were very significant social behaviors that meant something. I'm sure many Christians today feel more than satisfied to invite someone to their church or to a Bible study, but where is the investment on your part? Where is the risk of pouring yourself into another human being's life in a personal relationship in an effort to show them the truth rather than tell them the truth. Walk into a bar and drop the name Jesus a few times or quote some scripture and see what kind of response you get. People are build to need relationship. It is through relationship and love that fear is overcome, strongholds pulled down and truth accepted. If you truly follow Christ, and have love in your heart, then you know that people are more important than opinions. God's Truth is Truth period, and it stands on it's own without the need of any of us to make it function. However, the Bible is not a collection of truths to be used as labels to point out sin to others. We are not called to judge nor is it our purpose to determine who is committing what sin. We are called simply to love God, and to love others as we love ourselves. In closing I'd like to point out that Miller did not to my knowledge ever use his personal feeling or thoughts as Christian theology. He was simply telling his story, how he got from point A to point B, what he was thinking how he felt and so on. I think maybe your confused and think that as a Christian it is your duty to defend the gospel of Truth and some how validate it. The thing is, Truth (God) validates us, we don't validate Him. I don't get it right every time, none of us do. Grace is after all the reason why life isn't fair.nealhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14478885662189671762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-56583906740061229852008-05-24T08:45:00.000-07:002008-05-24T08:45:00.000-07:00Well if you are interested in pointing out irony you could say that my blog is a personal opinion (which it is) and you are attacking me -- which is what you say I shouldn't be doing to Miller. Ironically enough. It really is a vicious circle and not a subject I'm going to address.<BR/><BR/>Shopaholic really ISN"T worth my time. It's not trying to present scripture in anyway and is just bad subject matter. Why waste time on it when there are plenty more works of fiction which are more worthy of consideration. <BR/><BR/>BLJ IS dangerous because it is presented by most people who read it (read my entire post and disclaimer and you'll see I've already said this) as some kind of doctrinal guide. It's true. They even created study guides to be used in church settings. Journals do not usually receive that much notoriety and certainly not as "something to be studied and applied to our individual lives." THAT is what makes it dangerous. Perhaps Miller did not make it so, but certainly his readers did.Carriehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08772667430500306088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-34424353653351242742008-05-20T18:57:00.000-07:002008-05-20T18:57:00.000-07:00"Which is a problem when someone's thoughts are a bit screwy and not exactly on target."<BR/><BR/>Everyone's thoughts are a bit screwy and not exactly on target. Unless it's the actual Bible, of course it's going to be off target. At least it adds to the conversation. Miller's books have at least gotten some people thinking about God, who previously rejected God. I think it's interesting that the 'Shopoholic' series, to you, is merely not worth your time, while BLJ is downright "dangerous."<BR/><BR/>-DanicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-84890657910532923712008-05-15T08:20:00.000-07:002008-05-15T08:20:00.000-07:00We Read to Know We Are Not Alone: That’s such a great title for a blog and ironically the greatest reason as to why Donald Miller’s book, Blue Like Jazz, is a best selling “fad”. First of all, I respect that you acknowledge that the book is Don’s opinion in your disclaimer…that being said the review of his book seems contradictory to the title of your own blog:<BR/><BR/>“…not back up his thoughts with scripture or even try to defend them. He merely stated who he was and how he thought. The problem is that his "diary" was published and people latched on to it and indentified with it. But when you indentify with something you typically start to change behaviors/thoughts/feelings to engage with the familiar. Which is a problem when someone's thoughts are a bit screwy and not exactly on target. Suddenly their emotions are driving yours but there's no clearly defined path to explain where either of you are going.”<BR/><BR/>We Read to Know We Are Not Alone..doesn’t that imply that a reason readers read is to identify with the writer or characters of the story. Maybe Miller wrote to know that he wasn’t alone. Either way you criticize the notion of anyone identyfing with Miller. It seems quite a contradiction if you're saying I read know I'm not alone...I read to identify with others, but only others that I agree with or only others that aren't screwy.<BR/><BR/>I think Miller would agree with you that he was just writing his thoughts or “diary”. It’s not often when I journal that I quote scripture to back up my doubts or thoughts regarding God. <BR/><BR/>Like any other memoir it’s going to be one person’s opinion…it isn’t a theological text. It seems like you’re judging this book relevant to a genre that you acknowledge it isn't part of. <BR/><BR/>The very thing I enjoyed about the book is that some things resonated with me and some things didn’t and at the end of the day I realized I didn’t have to know everything. It was also comforting to know that other people struggled too and that end of the day it helped me know that I wasn't alone...<BR/><BR/>which after all is the point, isn't it?cmhhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11001334877156954673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-71810022518896946742008-05-14T22:36:00.000-07:002008-05-14T22:36:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.cmhhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11001334877156954673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-88699696996224273202008-05-14T22:32:00.000-07:002008-05-14T22:32:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.cmhhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11001334877156954673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-61831849172330605332008-05-02T14:22:00.000-07:002008-05-02T14:22:00.000-07:00I haven't read the book in a while and I've read all his other books (and many others) since. I will try to salvage what I can from my brain.<BR/><BR/>It was difficult for me to parse through your review, mostly because I think the impressions we got were completely different. My impression of your impression is that Miller was trying to paint himself as "different" and that we need to be more accepting even if it conflicts with the Bible. It also seems that you are saying we just need to follow the Bible (and we do).<BR/><BR/>I don't think that Miller was trying to paint himself as different, I think he was trying to say that the church has failed on a number of fronts and that a better one is possible. This seems irrefutable and dignified. I can say I agree and believe the absence of a Christ-centered message in [insert significant percentage] of churches is a tragedy. Unimaginable numbers are driven away from the love of Christ due to fear-based messages and political alignments run amuck (amongst other issues).<BR/><BR/>This is not to say that church is an abject failure. Far from it. And I don't believe Miller is saying so. I think he's saying somewhere along the line subtle shifts took place that seem different than the message Christ communicated. We (Christians) decided we like *these* people and not *those* people.<BR/><BR/>I don't think this book is for Christians who feel like "outcasts." I think it speaks to people who've had poor experiences with the church or those associated with it. There are millions of them. If they are to be won over by Christ in us, it is in our best interest to let that love shine through instead of acting as if we are the gatekeepers to Christ's love.<BR/><BR/>And that, is my most basic impression of this review. We can't throw Bibles at people and tell them to figure it out and we certainly can't preach *at* them all the time. We need to be in the game with them and loving them first and foremost, not separate and aligned. We need to be telling them they are beloved children of God and not sorting out all their faults and sins and where they need to improve. We need to have room for everybody (!!!) and not act as though we know how it all works and it's a recipe to follow. Miller's not trying to tell anybody how anything works (!) or somehow lead them away from Christ by putting his opinion in place of the Bible. <BR/><BR/>Your review furthers the point of the book to its core. "I don't like your opinion and it doesn't really matter." What does those thoughts say about our judgment? Our self-righteousness?Aaron L.http://www.blogger.com/profile/15522596186329429858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-30737288154413562182008-05-01T20:33:00.000-07:002008-05-01T20:33:00.000-07:00BLJ and Miller's other words are simply doing good things for many people (not the least of which is sparking conversation, among those both familiar and unfamiliar with Christ). <BR/><BR/>That is a high honor for any sort of literature, and I can only hope do the same in my own life through speech and deeds, although I expect nothing less than for a a critic somewhere to find fault with it.<BR/><BR/>It's kind of a sign of the impactive success of a message...ssnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-86999004319896146142008-04-30T13:56:00.000-07:002008-04-30T13:56:00.000-07:00Carrie, your review was very accurate and insightful. Thank you for taking the time to read it so closely (despite your dislike) and dissect the good and the, well, less that good.<BR/><BR/>I confess to some surprise when I hear people list <I>Blue Like Jazz</I> as a book that significantly challenged and/or inspired them, or list it as a breath-of-fresh-air.<BR/><BR/>I would list this book as "nice", and I mean that in an "it's ok, but I'm not planning on reading the author's other books" way. This is a nice book.<BR/><BR/>I'm surprised because there are many, many truly spirit filled and deeply grounded just phenomenal writings already in existence... I won't read the author's other books, not because I disliked this one, but because I want to move along to much, much better ones.<BR/><BR/>So I guess I'm saying, if you thought <I>this</I> was good? What else are you reading that your standards (and I'm sorry for being so harsh) are this low?elrjhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12395345022200253380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-77225293830877180602008-04-29T05:57:00.000-07:002008-04-29T05:57:00.000-07:00I just wanted to say that I love Blue Like Jazz. I used a paragraph out of it to propose to my wife. This book played a huge roll in leading up to our engagement and marriage. So the marriage argument didn't seem to bother me. How is that for ironic? All that to say that I enjoyed reading your review and look forward to other ones. Thanks<BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-71920968331374243072008-04-28T22:32:00.000-07:002008-04-28T22:32:00.000-07:00Faith.Carriehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08772667430500306088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-79319639366173825462008-04-28T20:31:00.000-07:002008-04-28T20:31:00.000-07:00amazing post (and comments) -- definitely needs a re-read to capture the depth and wrap my mind around what everyone is saying... hard to accept taking the words in the Bible as any type of truth without "experience" though -- how else to validate they are more then mere words?JKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12306447102220923922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-59804954703780465782008-04-28T16:28:00.000-07:002008-04-28T16:28:00.000-07:00Thanks everyone for your commments!<BR/><BR/>To clarify one point (I feel like I've already argued for myself) re: experiences:<BR/><BR/>Truth first; experience second.<BR/><BR/>In other words, I should not know that something "is so"/is truth because my "experience tells me so." Emotions, experiences, thoughts, etc., must all be VALIDATED by scripture. <BR/><BR/>I agree with Kimberly in saying that the Bible is a compilation of experiences that people had with Christ. Perfectly unusual experiences in some case. But it is primarily a communication of Who God is, exactly, and how we should test our experiences by the Spirit of truth. Does this make sense?<BR/><BR/>In other words, I am not saying that experiences are useless or shoudl be ignored. I AM saying that we should not make statements that, "I know it's true because my experience says so" with*out* that important scriptural validation. For our experiences can lead us to think untrue/sometimes manipulated thoughts. <BR/><BR/>If I let my experiences stand alone, then I'm in trouble and so is everyone who would think to listen to me for two seconds. However, if I can say, "I experienced *this* and I can give you an example from scripture that would suggest (or outright state) that I have concluded truth" then that is one thing and I have no objection to offer. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us in our lives. If we are not daily EXPERIENCING His presence, then something is desperately missing. <BR/><BR/>I experience things; you experience things; Donald Miller experiences things. <BR/><BR/>But I would never say (and take issue with those who would) that my experiences in life tell me whether something is true or is not true. There is one pure and undefiled source of truth and my experiences didn't make that list.Carriehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08772667430500306088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-52406974037606257912008-04-28T13:30:00.000-07:002008-04-28T13:30:00.000-07:00Hi, Carrie! It's always great to discover new book blogs ~ thanks for taking the time to share your reviews.<BR/><BR/>I wanted to weigh in on the question of faith and experience. As Petunia put it, <I>"The Christian faith is based on the Bible, not on the individual’s experience."</I><BR/><BR/>It has been several years since I ready BLJ, so I do not remember the particular context of the "experience" quote you mentioned (I am quite a book-marker-upper, however, so when I get home I may have to look up my margin notes). I have read all of Miller's books and heard him speak a few times. From my encounters with his writing and speaking, I can say that I know Donald Miller highly values the truths captured in scripture, as do I.<BR/><BR/>I do not, however, believe that valuing scripture requires renunciation of experience. <BR/><BR/>experience: <I>a particular instance of personally encountering or undergoing something; the process or fact of personally observing, encountering or undergoing something; knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered or undergone</I><BR/><BR/>I love the Gospel of John. I love how it starts out reminding us how precious it is that the Word of God made his dwelling among us so that we could experience him, walk with him, follow him... and finally understand his truth. The disciples <I>experienced</I> Jesus, that is how they learned about the truth, the life and the way. <BR/><BR/>In fact, in John 5:39-40, Jesus pleaded: <I>"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."</I><BR/><BR/>The Bible is amazing, and I am astounded at how every time I encounter the Word of God contained within I learn something new and understand more and am convicted about different things. The Bible is amazing, but it is not what Christianity is about.<BR/><BR/>The Christian faith is about experiencing the love of Christ, about loving the Lord God, and about learning to love others with his love.<BR/><BR/>The Bible is a special gift, the recorded experiences of people with God over time, of time spent with the savior while he walked the earth, of the indwelling of his Spirit, and of the birth and growth of the Church. The Bible is amazing... but the Bible is a record of <I>experiences</I>.Kimberlyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11775023211592319658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-69943940375775891982008-04-28T08:20:00.000-07:002008-04-28T08:20:00.000-07:00I really appreciated and enjoyed your thoughtful and careful review. This book has been recommended to me in the past, and several of my children read it and said they thought it was awful, but they didn't point out the main problem with the book as you did: Scripture/truth vs. feelings. <BR/><BR/>I am persuaded NOT to read this book, and I thank you!Laurahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17775836987596716063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-45571223842575733982008-04-26T14:37:00.000-07:002008-04-26T14:37:00.000-07:00I totally agree with you Carrie. The Christian faith is based on the Bible, not the individual's experience. We have the Holy Spirit who helps us with discernment but our faith and what we believe about God must come first and foremost from Scripture, not life experience. I appreciate your honest review.Petuniahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14059145750315789676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-65786789715388820382008-04-26T13:11:00.000-07:002008-04-26T13:11:00.000-07:00I'll jump in and say that I agreed with carrie and mercy's maid about the way that this book made me think. I don't always want a book that hands me a bunch of safely dry comments supported by Bible verses. Sometimes, a very thoughtful book - that leans a little toward the hokey side, perhaps - can be just as, if not more, effective. That's how I felt about Blue Like Jazz.calon lanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09964373798194372154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-70752665151091166142008-04-26T13:01:00.000-07:002008-04-26T13:01:00.000-07:00:) This is one of my favorite books of all times. So are lots of Donald Miller books. I really enjoy books that make me THINK, and this book did that. It made me evaluate why I believe the things I do...is it because it's what I've always been told is true or it is really true?<BR/><BR/>If you're going to throw your copy out, I'd love to have it. Shoot me a message at jennalayn1@yahoo.com if you'd be willing to send it to me.Mercy's Maidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02289821516382280204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-74393742104358596652008-04-26T12:53:00.000-07:002008-04-26T12:53:00.000-07:00Carrie,<BR/><BR/>I read this book a few years ago and also the 2nd, Searching for God Knows What. I enjoyed them, actually; the first one more than the latter. <BR/><BR/>Reading books like this helps me reflect on and evaluate my own spiritual journey, even if/when I don't agree with all the author says. And since it did that for you, perhaps the book was successful, just not in the way you might have expected.*carrie*http://www.blogger.com/profile/10545859613596796648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-206870551477154762008-04-26T10:08:00.000-07:002008-04-26T10:08:00.000-07:00I read this book 3-4 years ago--a the time I thought he had some interesting things to say, but then found that I quickly forget them (often when a book really grabs me I think about it for a few weeks if not months or years). You have good insights into his not wanting to get married.<BR/><BR/>I heard Miller speak 2 years ago and then read Through Painted Deserts, but I don't think you'd like it either and I thought wasn't overly impressed with it (it was his first book that got published after him having a "hit.") Books are somethings like pancakes (and some say kids), you throw your first attempt away. <BR/><BR/>From Semicolon Saturday Review of Bookssagehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17499891950639742366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31647067.post-67721576241670689112008-04-26T03:32:00.000-07:002008-04-26T03:32:00.000-07:00Someone else recommended this book to me, but I haven't read it. It sounds like it really engaged you. And your review in turn sparks my thinking!<BR/><BR/>You make a lot of good points. I think we all need a place to be honest about our questions and struggles, but to publish them isn't always the wisest or most loving choice. I agree with you there. We can end up being a stumbling block, having more influence than we realize.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you partly but not totally on the "my experience tells me so" issue. Isn't our experience, and our ability to discern truth, part of what gets us to God in the first place? A person isn't going to trust God before being convinced that he's real, and experience is the only thing we have to go by to get there. This verse pops to mind, too: "We love him because he first loved us." Receiving love is the precursor to a relationship with God, and that's an experiential thing, isn't it?<BR/><BR/>Just some questions you get me thinking about. This is a great review that really wrestles with the book. Thanks!writer2bhttp://writer2b.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com